Shania's CDs-- copy resistant?

[talkalot24]

Here is an excerpt from a Yahoo! article about the decline of CD sales as a result of piracy.

Here is an excerpt from the article:
"MORE COPY-RESISTANT CDs

Undaunted, Jorgen Larsen, chief executive and chairman of Universal Music International, told reporters the company will release more copy-proof compact discs as it did late last year with the "Fast & Furious" movie soundtrack.

"Because of the incredibly low number of consumer complaints we've received, I would say that on most major pop releases we would put in place copy protection," Larsen said. "

So, do you think Shania's CDs will be copy resistant? It says they will not adopt this policy immediately in the US, but will Shania's CDs eventually be copy resistant? What about her CDs that are sold outside the US?

You can read the entire article by going here:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=638&ncid=762&e=3&u=/nm/20020416/en_nm/media_music_ifpi_dc_3

[cbspock]

I sure hope not. This piracy is what is leading to the lack of sales. I think it has more to do with the fact that the current music is just plain garbage. Where is all the talent? Music has not been this bad since the early 90's when Rap was taking over Pop radio stations. I think Luke Lewis is correct in his assestment of the music industry.

-Chris

[drumbeat51]

Piracy has become a major concern for copyright material. I think Universal is doing the right thing too, to protect their interests regarding material reproduced for resale .

We have all seen the warnings protecting copyrighted material on VHS tapes and some DVDs, but the law is one thing, and inforcing it, quite something else. In a case where copywrited material has clearly been violated, it is legally difficult to prove the intentions of the accused and whether the accused intentions were to sell the copied material.

The thing to do, is to protect the material in the first place, I.E., use current day technology to elminate the temptation period and design the CDs that can be electronically altered when it is being copied.

I agree, that the artists and the recording industry needs protection, but for the ones who can`t afford to obtain the music they desire, may cause a surge in crime else where. Also, the costs of making a CD with this newer techology will also be a little h igher and these costs passed on to the consumer.

I do think though it is high time to begin protection so in the long run , the artists are protected and the labels otherwise, the entire entertainment industry suffers.

I agree that Shania`s material should be protected in the future. To go back and make her CDs protection proof now would be too costly and not practical.


Ken

[vegasjunkie]

Chris, I have to agree and disagree with your comment.
I do agree that most of the music that the recording industry are "pushing" on us is (IMOP) garbage. I do want to say that I said MOST of the music, there has been a few alblums that were worth buying. We need to tell the "powers-at-be" at the recording companys that when a group or person has a good song; they need to have that artist wait tell they have another 7 or 8 more of the same quality songs before they release an alblum. No wonder that the recording of songs from the internet have gotten so popular; you go out and spend $15 on a CD and there MIGHT be 2, maybe 3 songs that are worth listening to.

As for your question about "Where's all the talent". It's out there; I remember that VH1 had a show on where local bands could perform against others (i.e. battle of the bands) and the show had stars that were or are in the business to judge them. The judges would throw up a song and the band would have to play it, it got even more complicated, the judges would also tell them to play it in a different style, i.e. playing "Stairway To Heaven" with a disco style. Most of the bands didn't do as good as they wanted to, but, some of them where pretty good for being put on the spot and having no time to prepare.

Just my opinion,
Howard

[Roger]

Ken: if the recording industry thinks it can make its CDs uncopyable, good luck to them! But even if they can, I hope they don't do this until they can equal the flexibility now offered by MP3 file sharing services. I never have and I never will buy an album if I don't really like 4 or more tracks on it. I would be interested in say 3 tracks on a given CD and willing to buy them individually but I'll be darned if I'm going to spend somewhere between $18 and $26 (Canadian) plus tax (15%) for only three tracks AND be stuck with a whole bunch of songs I don't like that I have to program my CD player to skip over.

Roger

[Vivashania]

There are other ways to fight piracy than copy protection. The problem with copy protection is not whether it SHOULD be used or not. It's that it CAN'T. The very nature of audio reproduction makes it technically impossible. No matter what is done to digital data to prevent copying, the simple fact is that the final "audio out" signal used to drive speakers has to exist and can be hijacked in various ways. Copyguard schemes will not deter serious pirates, who are in it for the money, nor will they deter computer or electronic literate types. They will merely be an annoyance to less skilled users. CD's that don't play well, crash computers and such will generate more than enough bad will from consumers to offset any gains. Piracy is a problem but there are better ways to deal with it.

(Editorial note: I suppose since I made some flat statements about what CAN'T be done, I should mention that I do have some credentials in the field. I am a retired electronics technician and broadcast engineer, who also worked for Capitol Records for a time.)

[Jud]

Such as...?

[Vivashania]

Originally posted by Jud
Such as...?

You are quite right to ask me for an explanation when I say, "there are better ways," and then don't explain. I have some quite detailed ideas on how the recording industry can move into the computer age, allow consumers to make use of the technology that exists, and still protect themselves and collect their royalties. It's a bit lengthy and barely on-topic so what I'll do is try to write an article for POP Newsline within the next few days and I'll let you (and others) know when it's up in case anyone is interested in my thoughts on the matter.

[kirppu]

Yes Viva, it seems there are many of us interested in copy protection and internet music, at least judged by a recent thread about Celine´s new cd...

Please post the link when you have your thought up there.

kirppu

[cbspock]

Originally posted by Vivashania


You are quite right to ask me for an explanation when I say, "there are better ways," and then don't explain. I have some quite detailed ideas on how the recording industry can move into the computer age, allow consumers to make use of the technology that exists, and still protect themselves and collect their royalties. It's a bit lengthy and barely on-topic so what I'll do is try to write an article for POP Newsline within the next few days and I'll let you (and others) know when it's up in case anyone is interested in my thoughts on the matter.


Cool!! Can't wait to read it. You are right about the current methods of copy protection, I posted lenghty articles in the Current Events Forum Discussing it.......

http://www.shania-twain.org/mb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4786


Moving this thread to the current events forum

-Chris

[drumbeat51]

Originally posted by Roger
Ken: if the recording industry thinks it can make its CDs uncopyable, good luck to them! But even if they can, I hope they don't do this until they can equal the flexibility now offered by MP3 file sharing services. I never have and I never will buy an album if I don't really like 4 or more tracks on it. I would be interested in say 3 tracks on a given CD and willing to buy them individually but I'll be darned if I'm going to spend somewhere between $18 and $26 (Canadian) plus tax (15%) for only three tracks AND be stuck with a whole bunch of songs I don't like that I have to program my CD player to skip over.

Roger

Roger, I agree with you. This concept is nothing new, it has been going on since the days of Vinyl.

Yes, the recording industry has a responsibility too, to its customers and the artists. Yes CDs are expensive, and if you only like 3 or 4 songs out of 15 or 16 tracks, it is not worth buying a lot of times. I think it puts more pressure on the artists too, to come up with music, a lot of it in a shorter time. The problem lies in the subjectivity of the music. The same CD one finds only four tracks are worth while, someone else may like 9 or vice versa, but rarely does everyone like all the tracks on the record.

When CDs came out in the first place they were relativley expensive , with respect to the old vinyl records. The marketing angle was better fidelity of the music, and a record that has no mechanical devices to transmit the signal, hence a record that never wears out. It was done by electromagnetic transmission with the use of Laser light frequencies and receiving. My point is LOL, they are too darn expensive to make and we are paying for it. However, most of us are buying them ,and it is extremely profitable for the recording companies. As long as we buy them, the record companies will make them. It is kinda like Gasoline prices that go up, but does not alter demand enough for oil companies to cut back production. We continue to buy gasoline and don`t want to alter our lifestyle.

In the near future I see recording directly to a mini chip or microprosser making buying music even more expensive, but in some cases more versatile.

Why can`t a 6 track CD be made , smaller and cheaper? In the mean time, we don`t want the artists to loose incentive to record, and produce music. I don`t know where I would be without my CDs especially Shania`s!!!

Ken

[FV]

About a year ago I read an article that was predicting a complete change in the way CDs are delivered..this included Universal Music CDs..the author at the time was basically predicting that getmusic.com was going to be able to actually email you the tracks as soon as the record company itself received them...this way the company was going to save on the booklet artwork too..I am still waiting for this to happen..but it seems that the piracy concerns of the last 6 months might have killed that idea of using email to deliver the new goodies..:(
A possible idea I had myself, and I think someone in this thread already mentioned part of it, would be to be able to pick and choose the tracks you actually want to buy..so using the internet technology, I can simply go to the record company website and buy 3 tracks and pay for them...but without buying the rest of the CD..this does not mean that the piracy issue is solved..but maybe more fans will be buying the songs rather than downloading them..maybe..shrugs

[DOC BILL]

I think a great beginning point on this whole topic is to evaluate "Why" we buy music in any form to begin with, be it record, tape, cd, etc. I would say it is primarily to support the artist and to have a piece of their work that we can call our own. I think it has very little to do with supporting the music industry folks. When I buy music there is a satisfaction generated on my part because I feel I thanked the artist for their work and encouraged them to keep it up. It may be a touchy feely thing on my part but I don't feel as good about owning copied music of an active artist as I do when I "buy" it. I could easily download Shania's music only for my collections but I would bet I've probably bought 3-5 copies of each of her releases up to this point for my personal use and many others for Gifts to others. One for home, one for my car, one I put away to always keep it new, etc. Why would I do that? I could just as easily make copies. Well I do it because I want to support her and thank her for work. The artists and the industry need to put out a quality product (like Shania does everytime!) and we will buy it to support the work and to actually "own" a small piece of excellence. This tendency to put one or two "good" songs on an album and then expect us to pay for it is foolish. Give us quality work and we'll respond by being supportive. Music is important in our lives and we need and want to encourage it's existance and survival. But it's a two way street and the artists and industry "must" give us a quality product to get our financial support. JMO DOC

[AINAHS]

Originally posted by DOC BILL
I think a great beginning point on this whole topic is to evaluate "Why" we buy music in any form to begin with, be it record, tape, cd, etc. I would say it is primarily to support the artist and to have a piece of their work that we can call our own. I think it has very little to do with supporting the music industry folks. When I buy music there is a satisfaction generated on my part because I feel I thanked the artist for their work and encouraged them to keep it up. It may be a touchy feely thing on my part but I don't feel as good about owning copied music of an active artist as I do when I "buy" it. I could easily download Shania's music only for my collections but I would bet I've probably bought 3-5 copies of each of her releases up to this point for my personal use and many others for Gifts to others. One for home, one for my car, one I put away to always keep it new, etc. Why would I do that? I could just as easily make copies. Well I do it because I want to support her and thank her for work. The artists and the industry need to put out a quality product (like Shania does everytime!) and we will buy it to support the work and to actually "own" a small piece of excellence. This tendency to put one or two "good" songs on an album and then expect us to pay for it is foolish. Give us quality work and we'll respond by being supportive. Music is important in our lives and we need and want to encourage it's existance and survival. But it's a two way street and the artists and industry "must" give us a quality product to get our financial support. JMO DOC Bravo and Amen - I couldn't have said it better if I tried - I think we as music lovers and consumers have been ripped off by the industry and many artists for decades due to the inferior products they pawn off on us - until the last 10 years or so the music consumer never had the ways and means to fight back and get an equal footing or choice about the music they buy - now that we music buyers have the power, choice and knowledge to buy or copy music and know what we are buying or copying before the fact the shoe is on the other foot - I do not like being ripped off when I buy albums that have only one or two or three decent songs and I have vowed it will never happen again - JMO!

[Roger]

FV, I am one who has suggested people be permitted to buy individual tracks over the net. Really, this is all about packaging. The MP3 file sharing services have now set a standard the music industry will have to live up to. Now I am used to acquiring only those songs I like. Then I make up CDs to suit myself. Ken, I don't want smaller CDs. I like having a CD with 20 songs on it when there are no bad songs to suffer through or skip over. I myself like to mix up different styles on the same CD. On the last CD I made I have Anastacia, Céline Dion, Dixie Chicks, Elvis, Metallica, Michael Bolton, Rascal Flatts, Shakira and Sugar Ray. How's that for range? LOL

What I have done so far is go out and buy the CD if I find I have burned at least four tracks from a given CD. But, you know, this gets harder and harder to do. I go out and spend $25 and then never play it. I generally don't like playing 40 minutes straight of the same artist (Shania excluded of course) and I resent the tracks I don't like. Add to that: I don't think I really agree with the concept of intellectual copyright to begin with. You can see I won't go on buying CDs I don't play much longer.

So it's up to the music industry to get with it!!

Roger

[AINAHS]

Originally posted by Roger
FV, I am one who has suggested people be permitted to buy individual tracks over the net. Really, this is all about packaging. The MP3 file sharing services have now set a standard the music industry will have to live up to. Now I am used to acquiring only those songs I like. Then I make up CDs to suit myself. Ken, I don't want smaller CDs. I like having a CD with 20 songs on it when there are no bad songs to suffer through or skip over. I myself like to mix up different styles on the same CD. On the last CD I made I have Anastacia, Céline Dion, Dixie Chicks, Elvis, Metallica, Michael Bolton, Rascal Flatts, Shakira and Sugar Ray. How's that for range? LOL

What I have done so far is go out and buy the CD if I find I have burned at least four tracks from a given CD. But, you know, this gets harder and harder to do. I go out and spend $25 and then never play it. I generally don't like playing 40 minutes straight of the same artist (Shania excluded of course) and I resent the tracks I don't like. Add to that: I don't think I really agree with the concept of intellectual copyright to begin with. You can see I won't go on buying CDs I don't play much longer.

So it's up to the music industry to get with it!!

Roger I could not agree with you more, Roger.

I only wish I was as up to speed and adept as you in finding music and burning my own mix of music on CDs.:)

[cbspock]

Originally posted by AINAHS
Bravo and Amen - I couldn't have said it better if I tried - I think we as music lovers and consumers have been ripped off by the industry and many artists for decades due to the inferior products they pawn off on us - until the last 10 years or so the music consumer never had the ways and means to fight back and get an equal footing or choice about the music they buy - now that we music buyers have the power, choice and knowledge to buy or copy music and know what we are buying or copying before the fact the shoe is on the other foot - I do not like being ripped off when I buy albums that have only one or two or three decent songs and I have vowed it will never happen again - JMO!

I have to agree with you and doc!! I also like to have the ability to take the cd's I buy and create tapes /cds that have a mix of the songs on them to play in the car. We would lose that ability with copy protection.

-Chris

[Steve F]

I have to agree with DOC. He is right on with his response. I know it is really great to be able to download songs free. my son has been doing it for quite a while now. However, I'm from the old school which to me means that if you truly enjoy an artist you buy his or her cds, tapes, vinyl, whatever. That way you know you have an investment in that artist, no matter how small the amount is. It's the same as when you contribute to someone you want to see in a political office, you believe in that person. Well now you are showing, as DOC says, a way to thank that artist and show that you like and support his or her effort. To me this is what it's all about, not trying to get as much of the artist's work as you can for free. I know most of us have done this at one time or another, but it's not right. The right way is to buy it in some form, be it in the store or over the Net, whatever it takes. Of course I think we all know that pirating is never going to go away, but hope springs eternal.:)

Steve

[Darrell]

Originally posted by Vivashania


You are quite right to ask me for an explanation when I say, "there are better ways," and then don't explain. I have some quite detailed ideas on how the recording industry can move into the computer age, allow consumers to make use of the technology that exists, and still protect themselves and collect their royalties. It's a bit lengthy and barely on-topic so what I'll do is try to write an article for POP Newsline within the next few days and I'll let you (and others) know when it's up in case anyone is interested in my thoughts on the matter.

I am very intrested Viva! Don't forget the link! :cool:

[AINAHS]

Originally posted by Darrell


I am very intrested Viva! Don't forget the link! :cool:

Yes indeedy!

[kirppu]

Originally posted by cbspock


I have to agree with you and doc!! I also like to have the ability to take the cd's I buy and create tapes /cds that have a mix of the songs on them to play in the car. We would lose that ability with copy protection.

-Chris

I frequently make my own "compilations", with the few songs I like per cd. I have tooooo many albums with only a few good songs in them. :(
Copy protection has had much exposure on Finnish papers lately. One thing I´ve read is that all the major companies have copy protection plans, and new cds with copy protection are coming up and have come up.
How can I make my own compilations from now on? If a record company produces a copy protected cd, they need to make sure the quality of the songs on that cd is up to date. Skippings songs is very annoying.

Only Shania has so far given us a record with 16 songs of superior quality. Most of the new cds still have 10 or 12 songs in them (some maybe 14), and even with that small amount, many songs are fillers. That angers me. I guess those artists that make one album per year have to use fillers in their cds. I´d rather take one good cd 2 years apart than 2 so-so albums yearly.
Just my opinion,
kirppu

[cbspock]

Originally posted by kirppu
Only Shania has so far given us a record with 16 songs of superior quality. Most of the new cds still have 10 or 12 songs in them (some maybe 14), and even with that small amount, many songs are fillers. That angers me. I guess those artists that make one album per year have to use fillers in their cds. I´d rather take one good cd 2 years apart than 2 so-so albums yearly.
Just my opinion,
kirppu


I agree with you on that!!! I recall Shania mentioning the number of tracks on a cd that an artist gets paid for, is 10 or 11. Everything after that, they lose money, or the songwriter doesn't get paid. I wish I could find the interview, it is probably on one of the many CD interviews I have. Maybe RTC, or Vivashania could tell us how it all works. I know the interview ended with Shania saying she didn't care about the money, she just couldn't take any of the songs they wrote off the album.

I'll take Quality vs Quantity any time!! What is odd though, is that the music critics then attack Shania for making a 'slick' album. It is like they discount, all the blood, sweat and tears, and heart that Shania and Mutt have but into making the cd the best they can. What are they expecting Shania to do, bunt? When she has the ability to smash one over the fence? Guess they are jealous they lack the talent to do what Shania can.

-Chris